"WE ARE A TRUSTWORTHY PARTNER"

Interview: Luxembourg Times (Cordula Schnuer)

Luxembourg Times: When you look at the world today, what do you see?

Xavier Bettel: I see a world thats upside down. I can't say otherwise. Since the Second World War we've been living in peace in Europe and didn't have to ask questions in Lux embourg, for example, about defence. There was respect for international law, with some exceptions — but now those exceptions have become the norm. It's the rule of the strongest. World trade and the multilateral system have been turned on its head, and rapidly. We've always had situations that weren't easy, but we haven't had this kind of chaos in a long time. When I became foreign minister and wasn't prime minister anymore, I thought it would get less stressful. Quite the contrary! The situation is more complicated than all the crises that I experienced before. We've always had crises. Now we're facing poly crisis and that is the reality.

Luxembourg Times: The Brexit referendum kicked off a decade of disruption - the pandemic, Ukraine war, Trump in the White House, the swing to the right in Eu rope. From a policy perspective, how can you anticipate the future while constantly reacting to new threats?

Xavier Bettel: There's no scenario at the moment about what the next five to ten years will look like. Unpredictability has become the rule, things change all the time. It's tough to say today what the reality will be tomorrow. I don't have a crystal ball...There are so many factors: what will hap pen in Iran, with Russia and Ukraine. There is so much uncertainty that for the life of me, I can't now say what the next one or two years will look like.

Luxembourg Times: Doesn't that make your work a lot harder?

Xavier Bettel: Of course! In classic diplomacy you had foresight, a deal was a deal... today, anything is possible. When the US went to remove Maduro in Venezuela, you could've thought that's a movie script. No, it's reality. And even though every one's happy that he's gone — if we don't say "no", if we just accept Iran, Israel wanting to occupy Lebanese territory, settlements in the West Bank. If we turn a blind eye on everything, then we accept the rule of the strongest.

Luxembourg Times: Mark Carney at the Davos World Economic Forum said we live in an "era of great power rivalry". Do you think the EU is one of those great powers?

Xavier Bettel: That really depends. If we stick together, then we're a great power. If we don't work together, then we're a middle power. It's the same with our market — we always say we have a single market. But sometimes it's 27 mini markets instead of one supermarket. With Greenland, for example, we managed to stand united. If anyone had provided an opening, we would have shown weakness. Today, you need to show strength. Everything has become transactional in Washington. As the Luxembourg market, we need to be aware of our size. We should know what we represent. Our strength is that we're not a loud-mouthed politician telling people what to do, but — on the contrary — we look for partners.

Luxembourg Times: Talking about transactionality, we also find that in the EU, looking at Viktor Orban, for example. Have you ever felt that the EU itself is at risk?

Xavier Bettel: We have rules for when things are going well. We don't have effective rules for when we have problems. EU unanimity in foreign policy is why we're so weak — we always have one who can blackmail us.

Luxembourg Times: There is the old adage that the EU in moments of crisis rallies together in unity.

Xavier Bettel: The EU has always had difficult moments. You mentioned Brexit. Covid. The Greek financial crisis. The refugee crisis — I can keep going. We always came out stronger because we found unity. But to avoid these kinds of crises in the first place, I think that unanimity should be abolished on some issues. But to change it, you need unanimity. We have the same situation in the UN. We have five countries that are permanent members of the Security Council. Those five countries were supposed to guarantee peace — today, half of them cause chaos. Those rules don't apply anymore. There should be reforms, but to do those you need the agreement of those five. We made rules for the good times. And I think it's time to change them.

Luxembourg Times: The EU finds ways to rally together. How would you say does that compare to Nato and the UN. Are they as resilient?

Xavier Bettel: Nato works because there's a leader, Mark Rutte. Who leads the EU? If Trump needs to negotiate with Nato, he knows who to talk to. In Europe, is it Ursula von der Leyen, Antonio Costa, Kaja Kallas, whoever holds the presidency of the council, the presidents or prime ministers of the bigger countries, like Emmanuel Macron, Friedrich Merz or Giorgia Meloni? It's more complicated.

Luxembourg Times: I'd like to get back to you saying Luxembourg is a featherweight...

Xavier Bettel: No, no, no... we're not a featherweight. Because we've built a network and contacts. The size of our country means that we should be featherweight, but we're not. But we shouldn't have the ego to think we're the ones dictating affairs in Europe. That would be the wrong signal. We should be the bridge between the big powers, that manages to bring people together and find solutions. We are more important than our size. Diplomacy is also the human relationships that we've built.

Luxembourg Times: Speaking of relationship building. In response to Israel's war in Gaza you said back in January 2024: "We are neither friends of Israel nor Palestine. We are friends of peace." Is that middle ground sustainable - being everybody's friend and nobody's enemy?

Xavier Bettel: This is a good example, because it's not black or white. There were the Hamas attacks and Israel wanted to defend itself. But then you have to ensure proportionality, which at a certain point wasn't there anymore. We are dealing with a government that knows no bounds. But we should stop saying that we must be for Israel and against Palestine or for Palestine and against Israel. I am for an Israeli state, but I'm also for a Palestinian state, and for these to live in peace. I stand by the opinion of being for the people. I have a problem being against things. In Ukraine it's black and white. We have an aggressor.

Luxembourg Times: Do you see more black and white situations in recent years or more grey?

Xavier Bettel: There is a lot of black and white. Gaza is one of those situations where there's less and less grey. I told Israel that we can't help them if they don't create conditions in which we can help them. What they're doing isn't justifiable — we have to tell them this. It's intolerable. We must be honest. They try to find excuses, but if I don't understand them. I can't defend them either.

Luxembourg Times: As Luxembourg's top diplomat how do you engage with countries run by autocrats, dictators and bullies?

Xavier Bettel: Let me tell you a story: there was a head of state who asked me about upcoming elections back in the day and what the outcome would be. And I told him: less certain than for you. He laughed. I told him, I'm not going to secure 103% like you. You have to call a spade a spade. There are no taboo subjects. You must be able to talk about everything. When I went to El Salvador, I told the deputy president that they had a catastrophic security situation. They cleaned it up, but there's no reason for it to stay this way. A state of emergency is for emergencies, and not for ten years. I'm not sure whether they liked me saying this, but I said it.

Luxembourg Times: How do you keep personal opinion separate from policy? I'm sure you meet with people that you find simply unlikeable...

Xavier Bettel: I try not to contradict the position of the government. I represent a country, its people. I have a mandate and responsibility. I am who I am, but it's not about my opinion. The day that I cannot identify with the positions I'm defending, then I will stop. I get to follow my gut, defend my values, because they represent what's in the coalition agreement.

Luxembourg Times: You say, you follow your gut - how much of the job is intuition, a per sonal touch, versus strategic thinking and chess playing?

Xavier Bettel: One doesn't exclude the other. They go hand in hand. You must be able to strategically say things, but if you're able to spontaneously answer, it's an opportunity for exchange. If everyone just reads their prepared speeches without exchange, then you're not going to move forward either.

Luxembourg Times: You mentioned earlier that you do things behind the scenes. Every once in a while, we hear of a lunch or dinner that you organised. How important is this type of soft diplomacy?

Xavier Bettel: Incredibly important, especially for a small country like Luxembourg. Two or three times a year, I have 4o to so guests — heads of government, heads of state — where I get countries together that wouldn't otherwise meet. And they tell me that I'm the only one who could do this. The list isn't public, there's no protocol, there's no pictures. The aim is for people to get to know each other at a human level, to create some cement that binds people together. Thats part of Luxembourg's charm.

Luxembourg Times: Development cooperation, which you also oversee, is its own kind of soft diplomacy. What difference do you think Luxembourg is making in the countries it invests in?

Xavier Bettel: Many countries want something in return from the places where they do development cooperation. They want raw materials, to sell weapons, planes or whatever. Thats not Luxembourg's spirit. We want projects where we can change something for the better. In Cape Verde, for example, we have built a relationship of trust. We share values. And it's also difficult when we decide to stop working with countries, like in the Sahel or Senegal. But if their leaders effectively tell me they want our money and for us to shut up, then that trust is broken. And trust is essential. I need to know what happens with that money. There has to be transparency. I cannot just look away when women in Afghanistan are barred from attending university, when homosexuals in Senegal face ten years in prison, when bisexuality is equated with necrophilia or zoophilia. You must be able to discuss. Not lecture, but discuss.

Luxembourg Times: In addition to the foreign and European affairs portfolio and development cooperation, foreign trade is also part of your mandate. What ties these three things together?

Xavier Bettel: I wouldn't mix cooperation and foreign trade, but foreign affairs and foreign trade, because I travel all the time. Diplomacy for me is also economic diplomacy. This was important to me. We've had some good successes.

But it was a revolution to send people from the finance ministry to diplomatic missions in other important financial centres — giving a non-diplomat a mis sion to represent Luxembourg abroad. But I'd rather send someone to Hong Kong or Singapore who knows the fund industry.

Luxembourg Times: The new world order we spoke about earlier perhaps also requires new alliances for Luxembourg. There's been an uptick in relations with India, for example. Where are the places you see the biggest potential for the country?

Xavier Bettel: There are political alliances, economic alliances and alliances of trust. In cooperation, I need policy and trust. For commerce, I need to find opportunities. International trade has been turned on its head with Trump's tariffs. We need to find new partners and not be dependent on one power. Thats why we're expanding our embassy network — in America, Latin America, Asia, Africa and in Europe.

Luxembourg Times: Would you also like to see more embassies in Luxembourg?

Xavier Bettel: We managed to get Korea, Rwanda. I would like to get India. Thats a goal that I've set for myself. It's sad that some European embassies closed previously. But I'm also working on a new concept — and we need to discuss this with our colleagues — whether we could open Benelux embassies in places where we're not represented yet. Distributing the leadership roles equally. Because the Benelux cooperation works very well, and it's easier than the EU.

Luxembourg Times: Foreign travel, international partners... as foreign minister, what have you learned about Luxembourg, looking from the outside in?

Xavier Bettel: Our strength is building bridges, showing solidarity, understanding and respect. Not to lecture people, but to listen and exchange. People know they can count on us on multilateralism, values, cooperation, rule of law. They know we are open to questions, to discussions on human rights, and with NGOs. That we know we are stronger together. People know we are a trustworthy partner.